Dear Saints,
I listened to an awesome podcast interview of author David Lowe by my friend Amos Ridley of TruthStream Oasis. David wrote a book called “Deconstructing Lucifer, Reexamining the Ancient Origins of the Fallen Angel of Light.” All I can say is WOW! I was blown away! I have not read the book yet but I will be reading this one for sure! Get ready to possibly have yet another theological dogma challenged and the truth revealed!
What I gleaned from the interview is that David lays out a very detailed and outstanding case that the translators of the King James Bible misinterpreted the scriptures, and the word “Lucifer” as it appears in Isaiah 14:12 is a compete corruption. Not only that, but what he presents and asserts is that the belief that Satan was a fallen angel is not supported in scripture and instead was a created evil being from the beginning! Shocking!
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” Isa14:12
If you refer to the Aramaic translation by George Lamsa, you will see that the scripture reads COMPLETELY different;
“How are you fallen from heaven! HOWL in the morning! For you have fallen down to the ground! O, reviler of nations.”
HOWL!! How did Howl become Lucifer? David explains it in the interview, so listen to it!
The word Lucifer in Hebrew # H1966 is “heylel” which appears only one time in the whole Bible, Isa 14:12.
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
If you read Isaiah 14 in its true context the prophet Isaiah was speaking about Babylon and king Nebuchadnezzar who was the enemy of Judah and Israel. There are many that agree with that conclusion. For example here is a quote from commentary by Adam Clark:
“But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text . . . This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar.” (Clarke) http://www.godrules.net/para/isa/parallelisa14-12.htm
It has always bothered me very much, and I always had a huge check in my spirit about why Satan is referred to as the “light bearer” when JESUS is the light of the world and the bright morning star, NOT SATAN! (2Pe 1:19, Rev 2:28, Rev 22:16.) This revelation brings a whole new understanding.
Now let’s take a look at the other scriptures in Ezekiel 28 that most believe are speaking of the fallen “cherub” who has been interpreted to be Satan.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
So here is the problem with these scriptures representing Satan; the proper context clearly states that Ezekiel is speaking to the prince (king) of Tyre. If you read the whole chapter in context, you will see the important clues as to who this really is; the prince of Tyrus (Tyre), who is clearly A MAN.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. (Emphasis mine)
Our Old Testament scriptures are an anthology, meaning a collection of many different literary pieces. The Hebrew authors of the Old Testament often wrote in a very poetic and image based style with lots of idioms, irony and symbols. Meaning, they had their own jargon. Think of it this way, if you went down to the Louisiana Bayou and tried to understand the speech of the locals, you would be at a loss to understand them without an interpreter to offer an explanation.
Meanwhile, we have lots of people over many centuries who have tried to interpret and explain the scriptures to us, and guess what? I believe they got some of it wrong!
The other very compelling take away for me with what David Lowe presents in the interview is that scripture clearly states that God created evil, and that Satan was evil FROM THE BEGINNING. Therefore, Yahweh gave us a choice between the two, good or evil. We choose. That makes a whole lot more sense to me.
I can see how this “God created evil” can be overlooked, and misunderstood, because we have always been taught and conditioned by this story of Lucifer the fallen angel.
For example refer to these scriptures:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So, once again Saints, I am just sharing my journey as a believer. I just want to know the truth and nothing but the truth. As I always say, don’t believe me, search these things out for yourself, pray to the Lord on this, and come to your own conclusions.
In Christ, Sarah
Interview of David Lowe –
Read an overview of the book or purchase it here-
“Deconstructing Lucifer, Reexamining the Ancient Origins of the Fallen Angel of Light.”
Posts
I'll check this one out. I think there is something to this.
ReplyDeleteHi Ma,
ReplyDeleteYes I agree, there is definitely something to this! We should dig deeper into the word and use all of the resources we have now have with Bible search sites and software, it makes it so much easier to get to the bottom of these things.
Amen!
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteThank you for posting this on our blog! I share your excitement about the revelation of this truth and exposing another myth of the enemy.
In Christ,
David W. Lowe
www.deconstructinglucifer.com
In Ez. 28:2 it says "|1121| Son of|0120| man,|0559| say|5057| to the ruler of|6866| Tyre," the word 5057 is pronounced naw-gheed' or nagid {naw-gheed'}; from HSN5046; a commander. Then in Ez. 28:12 it says "|1121| Son of|0120| man,|5375| lift up|5091| a lament|5921| over|4428| the king of|6866| Tyre" the word is meh'-lek from HSN4427; a king: Two titles, two creatures; one of them was in Eden the garden of God. I don't believe God is simply repeating Himself.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying this to disagree but to say that in Ez. 28 there are two different subjects.
Thanks you.
Amen David! What a find!! I have always been very bothered by Lucifer as light bearer vs our Savior who is the real light of the world. Satan is DARKNESS! Of course there is that false light that is a disguise. But I am so glad you wrote your book. I hope my copy comes soon!!
ReplyDeleteIn Christ, Sarah
Well Audie I will have to look at that closer, I don't see it. Thank you for your comment brother!
ReplyDeleteGod bless.
I agree with Audie, Sarah, FWIW.
ReplyDeleteKim
Hi, Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI went and looked it up. The "Prince" of Tyrus is named in verse 2 and the "King" of Tyrus is named in verse 12. Looks to me like the "King" is the power behind the throne.
Kim
I looked at all of the scriptures that contain both of those words-
ReplyDeleteH4428 melek- king
H5057 nagiyd- leader, ruler, captain, prince
The way I see this is that it is not 2 different individuals but merely 2 different descriptive words used (by the translators??) to say basically the same thing.
I liken it to calling our president- "president" and "commander in chief" both of which describe the same person.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4428
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5057&t=KJV&page=1
Nope, sorry I don't buy it. I will have to really study this further to speak intelligently on the subject, but just off the top of my head I have a few major things that disturb me about David's thoughts. First, when you start making blatant claims that the KJV translation is corrupt then I can take that to mean that the whole bible is questionable. (Seriously, if a few passages are corrupted then... come on.. are you going to say that the rest is ok? no, so,..If this is the case then I'm now going to say, statistically speaking, at least 70 % plus of the rest of the bible is suspect and is probably corrupt...... Also, Lucifer was one of the 3 arch angels, other two remaining are Michael and Gabriel. Arch Angels are the leaders, the top level of the angels. Is David trying to get us to believe God would create one of the leaders of heaven as an evil body. And as far as examining those scriptures in Ezekial as identifying Lucifer, this has always been a point of contention and misunderstanding. So, in my opinion, Mr. Lowe shouldn't choose these scriptures to make his point. If after more research I find I'm wrong and David is correct, I will stand corrected. But for now, it don't smell right. God bless you all and thank God we can all operate in love.
ReplyDeleteHi Randy I ordered David Lowes book and I will read what he says with an open mind. The KJV is my primary Bible, although I refer to other translations and I see that all of them have some issues. There are other things in the King James that don't seem right me- for example Acts 12:4 mentions Easter. Well think about it, "Easter" is a perversion of Ishtar! Passover should have been used.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3957
Randy I have not studied the subject of the archangels enough to speak knowledgeably on that issue but I did a simple Bible search and Michael and Gabriel are mentioned in scripture, but Lucifer is only once in Isa 14:12.
ReplyDeleteMichael--
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Michael&t=KJV&sf=5
Gabriel--
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Gabriel&t=KJV&sf=5
As far as I know the apocrypha is the only place where the list of archangels are mentioned. The book of Enoch lists the 7 archangels as:
Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels
No Lucifer!
Interesting thought, but what immediately comes to my mind is that there are angels who kept not their first estate.. fallen angels. If they fell, why? We have traditionally been taught that 1/3 of the angels of heaven followed Satan when he rebelled against God. And that brings up another question.. some say these are they who came unto the daughters of men and created a new race, namely the Nephilim. And that as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the end, and that there will once again be a hybrid race on the earth when it is destroyed the second and final time. But if they are reserved in chains of darkness til the day of judgment as Jude indicates, how can they be coming again? It doesn't seem to fit...
ReplyDeleteJessica
Jessica- As for Satan/Lucifer as the head of the revolt- most have always believed this version because that is what is taught, but is that really true? I have read the book of Enoch which details the revolt and I remember I kept questioning, where was Satan in all this? The name of the angel who led the revolt is Azazel. I am going to go back and read it again. I will be reading Davids book as well, who lays out all of this in detail. Including how the early church fathers associated certain scriptures to one another and they did not belong together. I guess they took the concept of interpreting scripture with scripture a little too far.
ReplyDeleteScroll down on this link to read the part about the "Dead Sea Scrolls and 1 Enoch" where the book of 1 Enoch and the Book of the Giants was found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel
Thank you for your research Sarah. I will have to research this further. For now, I don't bear witness with God creating an evil angel I still have to find where I had learned lucifer or the devil or whatever his name was an archangel and led the revolt to take bout a 1/3 of the other angels with him. Also, the book of Enoch is not canon of scripture. so, please be careful dear sister. There's a lot of weird stuff out there on angels and the authority based on these findings is way out there. God bless.
ReplyDeleteThank you Sarah, I read that link. I too have doubts, as Traveller mentioned, that God would ever create the wickedness that is Satan. When God says that He "creates evil" in Isaiah 45 it seems that the context is that which is opposite to peace.. more like calamity, or physical evil.. not moral evil. Otherwise it would be fair to say that God is the author, or the originator of wickedness. But God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
ReplyDeleteI see this chapter as a declaration of God's sovereign control over all the affairs of this world. I do enjoy your posts, sister.. they get me thinking and searching the Word! :)
Jessica
Hi Jessica-- Glad you are checking it all out yourself and doing the research and bible study- don't ever take my word for it. It is interesting though isn't it?? I love to use the mind that our creator made and seek him and let the Holy Spirit teach me. I have learned so much in the last 3 + years!
ReplyDeleteGod bless!
I want to share a reply to an email from my friend in Hong Kong who sent me an article saying that God did not create evil...
ReplyDeleteI am kind of excited to be coming into the deeper things of God and He is leading me to study harder and delve deeper. I trust His Spirit to teach me. I don't know the fullness of the evil created by God issue. I always wait for a true "revelation" about things I don't understand and let the scripture interpret scripture where possible.
Looking deeper at that scripture in Isa 45:7. That word create is the Hebrew word - bara' - which is the same word used in Genesis where God created the earth, etc. There is a deeper truth here, I don't know it fully yet, but I trust I will learn it.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1254&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=create+evil&t=KJV&sf=5
This is also stated in lamentations also. God is the creator how is it hard to fathom that he created evil? Evil is all that is opposing to the will of God. Everyone talks about free choice is what created evil but neglect the fact that Evil would have to be there in order to have a choice this goes for the Devil as well the mere fact he could choose "Evil" Meant it had to exist correct? God does no Evil and does not temp with evil he doesn't wield evil. Evil is part of the system he created. One day we will not see any evil so we have that to look forward too:)
ReplyDeletescott
I hear that Scott! Can't wait for the time when we will behold our beloved Savior forever and no evil will exist in our midst!
ReplyDeleteI ask you all, does the statement "all things" really mean: ALL THINGS were created by and through Him??
When does ALL not mean ALL? Just asking....
Col 1:16
Eph 3:9
Rev 4:11
Personally, I see two types of evil.
ReplyDelete1. Calamity, which is ultimately God's judgment coming in the form of war, destruction, adverse circumstances (like when His people were carried into captivity) etc. This is what we see in Lamentations and Isaiah.
2. Depravity. This is the evil that we see in Satan, being the father of lies and the opposer of God and His good & perfect will. I don't believe that this evil is a created thing at all. To me this is more like darkness and light. Light was the created thing, darkness is merely the absence of it. So yes, God created ALL things through Christ.. but John 1 says that "without Him was not any thing made that was made." To me, depravity was not "made" but is the result of an absence of God's goodness. Just my opinion of course! =)
Jessica
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/KJB/dr_jack_hyles.htm
ReplyDeleteEvil is attacking us and the foundation of that attack is questioning the Bible (KING JAMES VERSION) (all other translations are corrupted. See jesus is savior .com for a complete description. The King James Version is the only true English version.)
this whole issue dear Sarah came up with the question of portions of the King James version of the bible being corrupted; i.e. not accurate. This, to me, is very, very, very scary and itself is evil. The moment we question the KJV Bible as not accurate, then we begin to question things like, "Did God create Evil?"
No! God did NOT create Evil. God created free will.
Here are some quotes about questioning the KJV as being reliable:
The issue that is dividing Baptists in my generation is the healthiest issue ever, the Bible. What better issue could divide? We're not going to divide over some piddling issue. We are going to divide over the foundation of our faith and that is, 'What is the Word of God, and where is the Word of God?'" (Page 54)
"Let me explain what I mean when I say that the King James Bible contains the words of God. I believe that every word in the King James Bible is God's Word." (Page 54)
"That means that the Bible I hold in my hands contains the very words of God Almighty. If I believed what most non-denominational, so-called Bible colleges believe, I would close my Bible and never preach another sermon." (Page 57)
"I ask you theologian, 'Did Jesus have the very words of God or not?' If I don't, He didn't! If God could preserve His words for 4,000 years when they had no printing presses at all, don't you think He could preserve the words of God for 2,000 years with our modern ways of printing?" '(Page 58)
"If the people in the church at Ephesus had a perfect Bible with which to fight the Devil, 1 have to have a perfect Bible with which to fight the Devil." (Page 58)
"I will give my loyalty to principles and support the institutions that embrace those principles. I've been saying that for over 48 years. Don't be surprised because I've dropped my loyalty to some institutions." (Page 62)
"That revelation which God inspired has been preserved as He said He would preserve it for these 6,000 years, which means we still have those very words..." (Page 63)
"So saint of God who doesn't know any Greek, just open the old King James Bible and look up to God and say, 'I'm going to read it; now You teach it to me.' That is the best form of Bible study any person will ever have." (Page 64)
"If God did not preserve the Words of the Bible, then He is a respecter of persons, but the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons." (Page 67)
"Every preacher whom I know who does not believe there is a perfect Bible, and who claims to preach the Gospel went off to college with a King James Bible. There some dirty professor tampered with him and shook his faith in the Book from which his pastor preached..."(Page 68)
"Is God so weak that He could not preserve His words? Could not the God Who gave His Words to holy men of old preserve His words for our generation?" (Page 69)
"Would God give one generation a sword but another generation a penknife?" (Page 69)
"I believe with all my soul that those preaching from a bunch of false Bibles are planting corruptible seed." (Page 72)
"Would God give all pure words to one generation but impure words to another generation?" (Page 72)
"If the Bible needs improving, it isn't perfect." (Page 73)
"My Bible says that the words and the Spirit are the same." (Page 75)
"There never was a time when the Word of God did not exist. There never will be a time when they don't exist. (Page 77)
Traveller, here is a pretty good article about the word Easter appearing in the KJV. The first English Bible did not translate that word the same. http://www.toolong.com/pages/acts01.htm
ReplyDeleteI read from the KJV because it is the very best translation from the original manuscripts in my opinion. I agree mostly about the modern versions of the Bible. Their translations change the meaning or add or take away from it. I don't like that...
Jessica
Thank you Sarah for allowing us to explore and learn together. To Jessica. Yes, I understand. Sarah brought the Easter thing up. I'm not a language expert. There are syntax, context, grammar, cognates and many other tools to describe and decipher a language. All I'm saying is the KJV of the Bible is not corrupt but is the very scripture God gave us English speakers. To me personally, it doesn't matter how we got it, I believe every word written in it. Easter - Passover. Ok, i know what both mean. I've looked at several sites that show translation problems with the KJV. and none of it could distort the meaning to me. Yes, all the new translations are really scary. Check out these You Tube sites under NIV BIBLE EXPOSED. Also, Jesus is Savior .com has an extensive study on the validity of the KJV and the evils of the new translations.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion of the KJV is how we got to the discussion of God creating the Devil to be evil.
I was wrong when I called Lucifer an arch angel. Please see this site that explains what I believe in that he was the choir director the head Cherub. He was placed over all the angels. God would not create this being evil. But God did give this creature a free will. And he chose to know and do evil in the sight of God.
Please see this site:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm
I believe Mr. David Lowe is jumping on this for sensationalism because certainly this makes for some interesting reading. But, he makes this claim based on his claim that the KJV is corrupted text and this is what I'm standing against.
God bless you all. Love you all in Christ Jesus our Lord and savior.
Randy I just want to be clear that I absolutely trust the King James Bible and I do not in any way want to give the impression otherwise. But with careful study I am seeing there MAY (??) be a couple words where the translation is questionable.(??)
ReplyDeleteThe fact that William Tyndale was martyred speaks volumes of how much Satan hated him for what he did to put the word of God in the hands of the common man. William Tyndale was responsible for the first English translation to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, which became our KJV Bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale
I am nowhere near finished with this whole vast subject matter. I have learned to wait on the Holy Spirit and not jump to conclusions. I have just started to read David Lowe's book. David is not a Dr. BTW. He is just a regular person like us and I think it is unfair to accuse him of sensationalism without having read his book first.
I also believe that we must be careful about saying we should not question things. I know you meant no malice Randy because I know your spirit brother. But when we are encouraged not to question and seek truth because of fear of upsetting the status quo, or the long held beliefs, then it reminds me of the very same spirit that killed William Tyndale for heresy because he questioned, disagreed with and challenged the Roman Catholic Church. As he played a major role in the reformation.
Obviously there is very much that is being revealed in these last days. Scriptures tell us knowledge will increase. But we should absolutely test the spirits, and...
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:15
I will say that I am not ashamed for questioning. I just want to know the truth, Yahweh's truth, not mans.
With Love In Christ, Sarah
Randy the site you refered for the story of Lucifer is the same story we have always heard and most believe today. Nothing new there.
ReplyDeleteI do find it ironic that the author uses the NIV Bible. : )
http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm
God's word can't be broken. You know the Dead Sea Scrolls showed up to confirm or correct what was written.
ReplyDelete1 Kings 22:20-22:23
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Why would God warn against corrupting his Word if it's not possible?
Rev 22:18-19 ....If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I know that is Revelations. However it is also written there is nothing new under the sun.
To Traveller, Jessica, and Scott,
ReplyDeleteI address all of the issues that you bring up in your comments below, such as whether Satan is/was an archangel, the fallen angels of II Peter 2/Genesis 6, and the notion of free will and God creating evil extensively.
I hope you will at least read the book and see if you still hold the same views after you read it, or at least listen to some of the interviews available: www.deconstructinglucifer.com/resources
Blessings,
David Lowe
david@deconstructinglucifer.com
The main problem I have with this book is that we end up believing that God created evil, at a time when the creation was totally perfect. The other problem is that, intentionally or not, it "lets Lucifer off the hook" and at a time of escalating evil in this world I'm not sure that is constructive. Know your enemy!
ReplyDeleteHi Tricia thanks for your comment. Have you read the book?
ReplyDeleteOk, thank you Sarah, I understand dear sister in Christ. you're on this quest. I know your heart sister. For David Lowe, yes I understand you've done extensive research and so is Sarah. I will check it out. I really like Cindy and Tricia's comments.. Why would God warn about trying to corrupt his word... and can you imagine God being pleased with creation, saying it is perfect and "oh by the way," I thought evil would be perfect and pleasing to me.??? It just doesn't add up. Even before I read David,s book, it really doesn't add up.
ReplyDeleteGod bless you all.
The idea that Satan was created as a purely evil being/tempter has no Biblical support whatsoever. If this were true, why would God ever punish Satan? In Genesis 3, why is Satan cursed? If he was made to tempt Adam and Eve, then he did his job! God should be rewarding him! It makes God's actions irrational and illogical. The "prooftext" of God "creating evil" interestingly is not defined in the book. The word "evil" in the KJV does not mean "moral evil" in that instance." It means calamity or distress and in context the judgment that befalls those who disobey the Lord. So in that sense every good parent "creates evil" when they discipline their kids.
ReplyDeleteAlso the notion that Adam is in view in Ezekiel 28 has little support. When was Adam using merchandise and filling "storehouses" with sin? When was Adam corrupting the world? This is wild speculation at best. The only link to Adam in that chapter was to the reference to being in Eden. But "eden" can mean one of several paradises throughout Biblical history.
There is also no mention in Genesis of Adam being a High Priest (and thus being covered in jewels). Before the fall of Adam, God communed with Adam directly. With no sin, why would a priest or mediator be necessary? One would not be.
And with regard to Satan being a transliteration of "the morning star" or the planet venus, why is this a problem? Angels are referred to as stars all throughout the Bible! Read Deut. 4:19. Read Job 38. Angels are called stars, heavenly host, and morning stars on various passages. There is a clear link between angels and celestial bodies in Scripture. So for Satan to once be called a morningstar is not big stretch in Scripture at all.
I think the book has some good points from a linguistic standpoint, but the overall thesis is very questionable. I can only urge the readers to take a step back and think about the thesis logically. It contradicts the character of God.
Reply to A-Omega-- Thanks for your comment. Just curious if you have read David Lowe's book? It doesn't sound like it.
ReplyDeleteJesus is the bright and morning star not Satan. (Rev 22:16) I see clearly from the evidence he puts forth there is a problem with the translation of lucifer. You also site the word "star" as the same as "morning star" which is the planet Venus and not a literal star, although it looks like one because of its brightness. I believe David Lowe proves the lucifer translation is wrong in his book. All of the evidence he sites is available to check out for ourselves. Read the book then lets talk. As to Yahweh creating Satan as an evil being from the beginning - don't know yet.
In Christ, Sarah
Hi Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that my tone sounded as if I had not read the book. I have read it (and really liked it). I guess there is a "problem" with the translation of Lucifer but that depends on what your definition of "problem" is. The book posits that the Hebrew word "heyel", which is used once in the OT, should be interpreted by its possible root "halal." I am fine with this. It then goes on to state that according to the LXX, the translation is a reference to Venus, historically known as the "morning star" or "day star", and thus could not be a reference to Satan. My point was that there are many esoteric references to angelic beings as stars in the Bible. Hence my mention of Deut 4:19.
Additionally in Job 38:7, the angels are referred to as "morning stars." In Revelation 12 the angels dragged down by the Dragon's tail are called in esoteric reference "stars." The term "heavenly host" is used interchangeably to refer to stars and angels. Jesus refers to Himself as a star. So why is it a stretch that Satan is referred to as a star or planet? It's happening all over scripture.
As for Jerome using the term Lucifer incorrectly, it doesn't follow when Jerome acknowledged the "howling" as a possible meaning of "heyel." If Jerome knew this, then why would go with the term Lucifer? Was he dishonest? Or just making a weird kind of mistake?
The point I am making is that in the context of the verse (which then immediately calls this Lucifer/person "son of the dawn") the title of Lucifer/morning star makes sense. And as an appelation for Satan it still makes sense. 2 Peter is often cited as an inconsistency since the word 'Lucifer' is not used, but I think it actually supports the unique use of the term Lucifer in Isa 14 because it is showing the translators understood the esoteric reference being made to Satan in Isaiah and wanted to distinguish it from the term "day star" in 2 Peter.
So is Satan's name actually Lucifer? No. But I don't see a problem with it being an appellation for him going by Scripture.
As for my other points, I was just going to the second main point of the book - that Satan was a being created as evil, for the specific purpose of tempting humanity into sin and then accusing them. Again, if this were so, why would God ever punish Satan? Satan, by tempting people is doing exactly what he was told to do. The Lord should have been praising Him in the Garden for his obedience, not cursing him. Right? By casting Satan in this light, God's actions become irrational. Why does Satan deserve an eternal punishment when he is just "following orders"??? This is a pretty big issue.
And finally re: Adam - I just don't really see him in view in Ezek 28. The charges being listed against him are just never seen Biblically. Nor do we ever see Adam in priestly duties that would require being adorned in jewelery.
I hope that makes more sense. God bless.
Shalom sister Sara and peace of Yeshua be with u, in referene to your above topic about satan/lucifer/devil in light of Isa 45:7,Ezekiel 28:13 and Isa 14:12 as interpreted by the author of Deconstructing lucifer, I must remain to disagree.firstly God is not the author nor creator of evil but in this context evil as referred in Isa 45:7 is not moral evil but disaster as consequences of sin,and which human ruler or king ever existed in the Garden of Eden? there was God and the our first parennts Adam and Eve but then remember they were evicted after their fall? please let us be careful when we interpret God's holy words as the book of James says clearly those who teach will be held accountable more.I would like to recommend anyone here who is keen to refer to www.gotquestions.org regarding the above topics.
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me if I may have sounded nasty but it troubled me regarding the part God created evil satan from the begining of time as in Isa 45:7,thankyou and with love.
To Anonymous- Thank you for your comment. Have you read David Lowe's book? He lays out a very solid case that the scriptures in Isa 14 & Eze 28 are not related to Satan.
ReplyDeleteAs to God creating evil, I am not finished with that part of his book nor my own personal study of the subject.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Note the word "principalities" - Strong's says "angels and demons."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G746&t=KJV
Note the word "powers" -Strongs says "the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates"-
(The same word "power" is used in Acts 26:18)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1849&t=KJV
There is much more study needed on this.
In Christ, Sarah
By the way I did find this article here-
ReplyDeletehttp://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html
This statement was interesting-
"Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good. God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him."
Makes sense to me. We were given free will.
But the scriptures that say "Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning" seem to be saying he was created that way or did he just choose that way? I admit, I need much more study on this!
: )
God bless- Sarah
Shalom sis sara,how are you? I am that Anonymous in reference to the above comment made by me in here I would like to response.The subject whether Lucifer is satan/devil is still subjective as there are others who comes up other versions,who knows? Only our God knows.I would like to draw attention here to any readers to please take a look at this website www.israelofgod.org/lucifer
ReplyDeleteNow its really like getting into a quicksand here the more struggle to find the answer the more deeper its getting mysterious, as I wonder which one is reliable?Now i am quite convinced that no direct mention about lucifer is satan/devil or vice versa in the Holy Bible,why I ask? because not once did our Lord Jesus ever mentioned when He touched on satan/devil that it was called lucifer? nor did any prophets after other than the verses in Isa,Ezekiel,Job in OT and NT in Revelation.
I remain here for your response.
USA= United Standing Always.
in HIS love